Structure Points vs. STA Points vs. Hit Points?

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 28, 2019 - 6:06pm
I've got a bit of a quandry here as I'm working on finishing up yet another story submission to the magazine.

What to do about vehicle structure points.

Allow me to explain.

Joe Cabadas
Comments:

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 28, 2019 - 6:33pm
Here's how Alpha Dawn handled it... well, with some alterations:

Structural Damage

The structural points of various doors, walls and vehicles are shown on the adjacent Structural Damage Capacity table. Typically this is the amount of damage needed to break through a door, blast a hole in a wall, etc. rather than completely destroying an object.

The Structural Damage Table provides examples of the amount of structural damage that a given weapon may cause when used against doors, walls, vehicles or other structures. 

 

Structural Damage Table

Weapon

Structural Damage

Projectile weapon (includes automatic pistols, rifles and machine guns)

5 points/shot

Gyrojet (includes pistols and rifles)

10 points/shot

Needler rifle/pistol

no damage

Laser (includes pistols and rifles)

5 points/SEU

Rafflur

¼ damage

Maser

no damage

Bolt

½ damage

Fragmentation grenade

(if placed instead of thrown)

15 points

30 points

Micromissile

1d10+4/shot

High Explosive Warhead

½ damage to normal damage

Standard Explosive Warhead

normal damage

Force Axe

1d10+2

Bombs/Artillery Shells

normal damage

Vibroknife

1d4

Javelin or Spear

1d3

Knife

1 point

Sword

1d4 points

Note: These are examples of the types of damage that these weapons can cause against normal structures.

However, materials that are less dense may take more damage. A structure made from a reinforced or armored material may take less damage or none at all depending upon the referee’s discretion.

 

 

Structural Damage Capacity Table

25+d10

 

Heavy Door

Interior Wall

Sign Post

 

50+2d10

 

Fortified Door

Exterior Wall

Light Vehicle

 

100+d100

 

Safe

Fortified Wall

Heavy Vehicle

 

200+2d100

 

Vault

Armored Wall

Armored  Vehicle

 

 


Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 28, 2019 - 6:13pm
In re-reading the Starspawn of Volturns, I noticed that the Sathar Automatic Cannon and a Sathar truck had structure points as given under the Alpha Dawn rules. That would make sense, right?

So, the potential of weapons' fire, in some cases is actually reduced versus. So, if I have my captured Mechanon warbot crank its heavy laser up to 20 SEU, it can do 100 structure points of damage to a vehicle as opposed to a maximum of 200 points if it was listed as Stamina -- like robots are. 
Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
March 1, 2019 - 2:17pm
Fast forward to Larry Moore's story in Star Frontiersman magazine, which I've tried using to build vehicles, and we get the following... with some changes I've been making:

Vehicle Defenses and Damage

Defense screens and armor are the two basic vehicle defenses in Star Frontiers. Armor is handled under the concepts of various vehicle duties – classes of vehicles from civilian to military designs – coats of armor or reflective paint, shielding against electromagnetic pulse (EMP) attacks, and spray armor.

Some other concepts for advanced vehicle combat include taking into account the size of the vehicle that is damaged, and structure points.

Vehicular Structure Points. How do you know when a vehicle is totally destroyed? This optional rule changes the “No Effect” result in the Alpha Dawn vehicle damage table to direct damage to the structure of a vehicle.

The number of structural points (SP) for each vehicle is listed in the Vehicle Structure Table. When the vehicle is reduced to zero structural points it is so badly damage it is no longer fit for service.

For example, a civilian ground cycle is considered a size 1 vehicle. It will have a total of 200 structure points. A shot laser pistol penetrates the side of the cycle’s engine compartment it may hit a sensitive area causing the vehicle to stop, but it may also damage the structure of the vehicle.

The structure takes damage when the “No Effect” result is rolled on the vehicle damage table. The number of structure points (SP) that a vehicle has is equal to its size multiplied by 200.

Note, if a character is trying to break into a vehicle, such as blowing open a door on an armored vehicle, refer to the Structural Damage Capacity table. This damage may affect the vehicle’s overall integrity, but breaking into a locked glove compartment, however, might not harm the rest of the vehicle.

Option: Structure and Vehicle Damage. This optional rule involves rolling normal damage against the vehicles SP and rolling on the vehicle damage table. This technique offers a little more realistic simulation of how combat rips apart a vehicle while causing malfunctions.

Cumulative Effects. Both special damage and structural damage to vehicles are cumulative. [1]

Vehicle Structure Point Table

Size

SP

Example(s)

0

20-100

Bicycles, mopeds, 1-person transport pods, go-karts.

1

200

2 person cycles, ATVs, “golf” carts.

2

400

2-4 person small cars

3

600

Mid-size cars (standard Star Frontiers ground cars and hover cars)

4

800

Small cargo trucks or vans.

5

1,000

Large cargo haulers, tractor trailers.

6

1,200

Truly large vehicles but excludes mass transports such as monorails, ocean freighters, etc.






[1] Williams, Skip. “Sage Advice,” Dragon Magazine, July 1988, p. 44.


Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 28, 2019 - 6:24pm
No, Larry Moore did not include size 0 vehicles. That's something I added.

But, I'm thinking that Moore's system, if it is supposed to be related to the Alpha Dawn system, gives many vehicles too many structure points. That's especially true if weapons' fire is limited. My Needler does nothing to a groundcycle even if I'm firing right into it's battery compartment?

I don't know.

Should I just say Moore's "structure points" are actually "stamina points"? 
Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 28, 2019 - 6:41pm
Next puzzle, going over to an old project, but one worth mining ideas for:

Chuck's Car Lot

http://www.starfrontiers.us/node/3345

Ok, so here is where i put in my own 2 cents. I never really liked the regular way of assessing damage to vehicles. It just seems to lack a bit, I mean roll 2d10 and add dice to the table for a result. What about the damage to the vehicle besides the table result ? So, here is my proposal:

1) on a successful hit, structural damage is applied
  a) personal weapons consult structural damage chart
  b) vehicle weapons do normal damage
2) damage is taken off armor first
3) if no armor left, roll on vehicle damage table
 
So, this means a revised damage table must be drawn up. Also, this means instead of turn speed reduced the actual damage may be suspension hit. Or what about the stray shot that hits the driver or takes out a vehicle system, such as the computer.
My problem isn't really with coming up with the table it's more a matter of will the 2d10 plus die of damage system be feasable? I'll try an post a revised table soon.

-- chevelless, posted November 30, 2008 - 2:00pm
Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 28, 2019 - 6:42pm
And then this interesting reply to chevelles:

...

Vehicle HP and damage

Civilian vehicles have HP equal to their size x 100. Military vehicles have size X 200 HP. If a vehicle takes 1/4 of its total HP in damage, any drive checks are at -5. If a vehicle takes 1/2 of its HP in damage, it is disabled. If it takes 3/4 of its HP in damage, it cannot be repaired. Vehicles deal damage according to the following formula:...


Posted by: copycat042 on December 1, 2008 - 6:40pm

Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 28, 2019 - 6:32pm
I guess "HP" would be hit points.

I'm thinking of bumping Moore's structure point concept down to copycat042's, but should I just say that these "structure points" actually act like Stamina points?
Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 28, 2019 - 6:34pm
I need to fix how this table looks:

 

Structural Damage Capacity Table

25+d10

 

Heavy Door

Interior Wall

Sign Post

 

50+2d10

 

Fortified Door

Exterior Wall

Light Vehicle

 

100+d100

 

Safe

Fortified Wall

Heavy Vehicle

 

200+2d100

 

Vault

Armored Wall

Armored  Vehicle

 

 


Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 28, 2019 - 6:40pm
Maybe the chart should look more like this:

Structural Damage Capacity Table

--------------Structure Points--------------

25+d10

50+2d10

100+d100

200+2d100

Heavy Door

Fortified Door

Safe

Vault

Sign Post

Light Vehicle

Heavy Vehicle

Armored  Vehicle

Interior Wall

Exterior Wall

Fortified Wall

Armored Wall


Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
February 28, 2019 - 6:46pm
Hmm, a sign post has 25 + 1d10 structure points under A.D.

So, again, I take may Needler Rifle and shoot a thousand shots into a sign post and it stays structurally sound?

My drywall walls (interior wall) can take all sorts of punishment from a Needler while a knife will do 1 point per strike? What if I have a dry wall knife?
Joe Cabadas

jedion357's picture
jedion357
February 28, 2019 - 9:07pm
Honestly I find figuring out structural points when I need to a pain i n the poop hole. wouldnt it just be better to have Hit points which relate to STA
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

JCab747's picture
JCab747
March 1, 2019 - 2:19pm
jedion357 wrote:
Honestly I find figuring out structural points when I need to a pain i n the poop hole. wouldnt it just be better to have Hit points which relate to STA
 

I'm leaning that way. After all, robots have STA, not structure points.
Joe Cabadas

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
March 1, 2019 - 3:45pm
IIRC canon structure points is the equivalent of 2xSTA points, meaning a 5SEU laser blast would inflict 5-50 STA damage or 2.5-25 structure points. At least that's the simple formula I've gone by.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

jedion357's picture
jedion357
March 1, 2019 - 3:55pm
Shadow Shack wrote:
IIRC canon structure points is the equivalent of 2xSTA points, meaning a 5SEU laser blast would inflict 5-50 STA damage or 2.5-25 structure points. At least that's the simple formula I've gone by.
My point is in a rules rewrite by the Jedion everything would just be STA and you wouldn't have to look up anything concerning how much weapon X will do. Just roll the damage listed on your character sheet
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

JCab747's picture
JCab747
March 1, 2019 - 4:01pm
jedion357 wrote:
Shadow Shack wrote:
IIRC canon structure points is the equivalent of 2xSTA points, meaning a 5SEU laser blast would inflict 5-50 STA damage or 2.5-25 structure points. At least that's the simple formula I've gone by.
My point is in a rules rewrite by the Jedion everything would just be STA and you wouldn't have to look up anything concerning how much weapon X will do. Just roll the damage listed on your character sheet
 

I am definitely leaning toward the Jedion rule.
Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
March 1, 2019 - 4:17pm
I could still see some weapons not being able to do much damage to a vehicle, or a wall, or security door.

You could take a sledge hammer and bang on the armored hull of the battleship Missouri for hours, for example, and probably only scratch the paint, etc. 

I'm just trying to find a good middle ground... at least for my own thinking...
Joe Cabadas

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
March 2, 2019 - 1:02am
jedion357 wrote:
Shadow Shack wrote:
IIRC canon structure points is the equivalent of 2xSTA points, meaning a 5SEU laser blast would inflict 5-50 STA damage or 2.5-25 structure points. At least that's the simple formula I've gone by.
My point is in a rules rewrite by the Jedion everything would just be STA and you wouldn't have to look up anything concerning how much weapon X will do. Just roll the damage listed on your character sheet

That's the beauty of it...1SP = 2STA. Just convert the canon values to STA, a 100SP object has 200STA, and you have your single unit system.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

JCab747's picture
JCab747
March 2, 2019 - 9:22am
Shadow Shack wrote:
jedion357 wrote:
Shadow Shack wrote:
IIRC canon structure points is the equivalent of 2xSTA points, meaning a 5SEU laser blast would inflict 5-50 STA damage or 2.5-25 structure points. At least that's the simple formula I've gone by.
My point is in a rules rewrite by the Jedion everything would just be STA and you wouldn't have to look up anything concerning how much weapon X will do. Just roll the damage listed on your character sheet

That's the beauty of it...1SP = 2STA. Just convert the canon values to STA, a 100SP object has 200STA, and you have your single unit system.
 

That works.

Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
March 2, 2019 - 12:35pm
Reposting this from the Facebook page for informational purposes. I find it interesting...

Sarah Weaver .
One more point about vehicles; in the real world, vehicles become inoperable long before they are destroyed; the rules in Alpha Dawn (pp. 31-2) reflect this well; rolls or roll and burn results from loss of control result in either an inoperable vehicle or one that can be driven again in 1d10 turns; high-speed collisions kill the vehicle, while lower speed collisions result in -20m/turn to acceleration and turning speed once the vehicle starts up again after 1d10 turns.

Combat damage requires rolls in the Vehicle damage table; 2d10+the number of dice of damage from the weapon; a 1 SEU laser means a 2d10+1 roll, while the laser set on 20 SEU will require a 2d10+20. Since rolls of 2-19 equal “no effect”, this means that vehicles are pretty darn tough, capable of absorbing significant damage without major effect; even a point-blank 15d10 damage rocket launcher might result in no effect or minnor acceleration issues! Of course, it might roll and burn on the spot, but this is what happens when vehicle builders put safety first in construction.

“Steering Jammed” results leave the vehicle functionally inoperable without repairs, turn speed damage (which is cumulative) increases the chance of loss of control and thus of a collision... assuming that the cumulative loss does not render the vehicle unsteerable.

Considering this intrinsic toughness of vehicles, and the canon lack of need for armored combat vehicles, there is no real need for tanks or other heavy combat units.

What? Yes, no need for tanks. The worlds of the Frontier Sector have homogeneous planetary governments, so their military forces do not have to face other military forces on the ground. Conversely, carrying combat vehicles from one world to another is simply not viable; the resources required to bring enough tanks to make a difference simply do not exist, based on the rate of ship construction and the rules for take off and landing from planetary surfaces.

On the other hand, combat robots, led by warbots, are well-suited for interplanetary conflict, and these can use more conventional equipment (suits, screens, weapons). These units do not need specialized combat vehicles either, only modified conventional vehicles.

So what advantages would there be to assigning structural points to vehicles? 

More advantageous, I think, would be to introduce specialized projectile and gyrojet ammo that has a bonus to the roll on the vehicle damage table in exchange for overall damage. For example, a rocket launcher firing an anti-vehicle rocket would have a vehicle damage table roll of 2d10+20 (instead of 2d10+15), but would do only 10d10 damage (instead of 15d10). A gyrojet pistol with anti-vehicle ammo would roll 2d10+3 instead of 2d10+2, but do only 1d10 damage, rather than 1d10.

Joe Cabadas

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
March 3, 2019 - 9:01am
Sarah Weaver . wrote:
What? Yes, no need for tanks. 

Words to live by when a Sathar flotilla is orbiting your world and raining hordes of drop ships upon your civilization.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

JCab747's picture
JCab747
March 3, 2019 - 9:09am
Shadow Shack wrote:
Sarah Weaver . wrote:
What? Yes, no need for tanks. 

Words to live by when a Sathar flotilla is orbiting your world and raining hordes of drop ships upon your civilization.
 

There is that point. On FB she noted that she also played BattleTech and another game dealing with vehicle combat and that Star Frontiers was a kind of respite from that.

But, it looked like TSR was grudgingly moving toward providing some kind of ground vehicle combat system, at least with its Dragon magazine articles. And especially with things such as the Corporate Wars.

Sarah does have a point that the SF system shows how vehicles can be disabled long before they are destroyed.

Larry Moore's system allowed for structure points, which could be damaged when you get a "no result" roll...

I could be wrong, but I just think there could me a more of a merger of the ideas above... especially when it comes to handing structure points and vehicles. It's something that TSR put into the game.

Thanks for the input!
Joe Cabadas

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
March 3, 2019 - 8:58pm
What Sarah and some folks are missing is not everything that has Structure Points is a vehicle. It's definitely a system that is warranted. I have always used the idea that "no effect" causes a loss of SP for vehicles, anyone that says otherwise is certainly welcome to start blasting away at their own car with a firearm or sledge hammer or anything else that does "no effect" to disprove that for me. ;)



P.S. I tried finding that discussion, is it still live or did it get deleted?
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

JCab747's picture
JCab747
March 4, 2019 - 8:34am
Shadow Shack wrote:
What Sarah and some folks are missing is not everything that has Structure Points is a vehicle. It's definitely a system that is warranted. I have always used the idea that "no effect" causes a loss of SP for vehicles, anyone that says otherwise is certainly welcome to start blasting away at their own car with a firearm or sledge hammer or anything else that does "no effect" to disprove that for me. ;)



P.S. I tried finding that discussion, is it still live or did it get deleted?
 

It's actually a side discussion under the Dralasite Liberation Front posting. 

I noted that Sarah Weaver said she had been playing the game for 30+ years and kept finding things in the rules, so I asked her opinion about vehicle structure points. 

Although I tried to direct the discussion to this site, unfortunately most wish to discuss it on FB.


Joe Cabadas

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
March 4, 2019 - 11:44am
JCab747 wrote:
Although I tried to direct the discussion to this site, unfortunately most wish to discuss it on FB.

The sad fact is the forum message board format is a dying breed when stacked against the world of instant gratification that social media satisfies. Only we true grognards stick around the forum boards.

Cool Cool Cool 
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

jedion357's picture
jedion357
March 5, 2019 - 8:10am
Shadow Shack wrote:
JCab747 wrote:
Although I tried to direct the discussion to this site, unfortunately most wish to discuss it on FB.

The sad fact is the forum message board format is a dying breed when stacked against the world of instant gratification that social media satisfies. Only we true grognards stick around the forum boards.

Cool Cool Cool 

I had not bothered with FB much until the magazine was halted and things got quiet around here. I needed some SF conversation and got it there but unfortunately I dont think that formate leads anywhere. or will produce what this format has produced.

It has a place for communication, soliciting sathar content- just got a submission (and the author supplied art work which was nice) and I dont recognize the name so that come from FB

so what do we do? adapt or die? cant beat FB so join it? Discord server which could be seen as a mix of this and FB? or just keep plugging away as recruiting people off FB to this site?

if its recruit than it will require a strategy.

I like this site.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

JCab747's picture
JCab747
March 5, 2019 - 9:06am
I like this site too.

As you noted, FB allows for quick communication, but not much in providing indepth feedback on subjects that could turn into magazine stories/useful resources.

One benefit of the FB page is I can post documents there where I can't upload them here anymore!
Joe Cabadas

jedion357's picture
jedion357
March 5, 2019 - 2:27pm
Yeah I'm certain that FB is not the place for colloration or material development.
1. too many members mean and even non members can spout off in a thread- my cousin Jay likes stuff I post on the FB sf page i'm guessing because its public. so that dynamic is that sometimes a discussion goes off topic or left turns and you end up with a long string of short and essentially meaningless comments which facilitates nothing.

2. the scroll effect means old material gets scrolled down far faster than it happens in the forumns here and if you endeavor to scroll down and find something you speed a lot of time waiting for the FB servers to locate the material and add it to your screen.

3. the search feature is not as robust as the one on this site.

4. and its very heat of the moment.

5. and non permanent.

but the positives are fast and wide communication. which has a value.

so there is a value to FB its a communication channel to the community at large that will reach a heft percentage of them fairly fast.  which is good for announcements I guess.

I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

JCab747's picture
JCab747
March 5, 2019 - 7:06pm
Well, here's an idea that takes Larry Moore's idea for vehicle structure points but I attempt to "right size it" so it is closer to the Alpha Dawn chart. It also includes the idea of converting Structure Points to STA points. That conversion is for those who don't want to go through the rigmarol of trying to see how much damage a weapon causes to a structure point.

Chart below revised after original posting.

Vehicle Size, Structure/STA Point Table

Size

SP

STA

Example(s)

0

10-35

20-70

Bicycles, mopeds, 1-person transport pods, go-karts.

1

50-100

100-200

2 person cycles, ATVs, “golf” carts.

2

125-150

250-300

2-4 person small cars

3

175-225

350-450

Mid-size cars (standard Star Frontiers ground cars and hover cars)

4

250-300

500-600

Small cargo trucks or vans. (standard Star Frontiers transport)

5

325-350

650-700

Large cargo haulers, tractor trailers.

6

400+

800+

Truly large vehicles but excludes mass transports such as monorails, ocean freighters, etc.

 
Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
March 5, 2019 - 3:54pm
When you burn through the SP/STA, the vehicle is unusable. It is not necessarily blown to smithereens, but would need extensive repairs.

1 Credit / STA point for the repair cost?

Maybe 5 Credits / STA point for the repair cost?

Or 10 Credits / STA point?

Heck, it could be a graduated repair cost. For the first 10 percent of the STA, it's 2 Credits per STA point; if the damage is between 11-50 percent, it's 10 Credits per STA; for any points over 50 percent, it's 20 Credits per STA point.

So, if your car had 300 STA originally and 15 points were damaged, you'd spend 30 Credits for repairs; but if the damage was 31 points, you'd spend 310 Credits on repairs; if the damage was 151 points (more than 50 percent), you'd spend 3,020 Credits for repairs. Might be time to look for a new car under SF prices. 
Joe Cabadas

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
March 5, 2019 - 3:55pm
Still don't know why Joe can't post files and Shadow can't quote.  Those are really wierd issues that I don't have an answer to.  I was asked to weigh in on my opinion in the side topic and in an effort to not hijack the discussion more, have started a new thread:


As to the discussion topic,  I typically go very similar to Shadow Shack.  1 SP = 2 STA. I also go with 1 Hull point = 100-150 SP.  I usually convert SP to STA and just let weapons to their rolled damage.
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