Wax, rubber, & plastic bullet discussion thread

jedion357's picture
jedion357
July 20, 2017 - 9:05am
I was looking over "ship safe" projectile weapon options for Star Frontiers.

Wikipedia is a good source for history and development of these bullets as well as the wood bullets developed by the Chinese.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=Non+lethal+bullets&go=Go&searchToken=aws64ns5uot2djs4ts9f183dl
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!
Comments:

jedion357's picture
jedion357
July 20, 2017 - 9:13am
Wax bullets seem to me to be mostly a training bullet. 

Plastic and rubber seem suitable for this purpose.

Ideas on rules for use? 

3 points per hit, which still leaves the optunity for the rare lethality and they still do 1point of damage even when target has both skein suit and inertia screen?

Or shot at ground and bounced into legs of target causes pain penaly for one turn (-20) - how some real world versions of these bullets were used?


I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

jedion357's picture
jedion357
July 20, 2017 - 9:18am
Or would tangler rounds superceed these bullets in the Frontier?

If so than I don't think a bullet should exactly equal a tangler grenade: 3 hits to equal tangler; 1 hit is -5 to activity and 1/2 move, 2 hits -10 to activity and 1/4 move.

Adapt burstfire rules: each 1d10 of damage that would be done equals a hit with tangler bullet. 
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

SFAndroid's picture
SFAndroid
July 20, 2017 - 10:43am
The wood rounds were iffy. They'd swell or shrink, based off humidity. They worked great in shotguns, though they had to have extra weight added to function. The lighter materials tended to just fall out the end of the barrel like an overworked adult film actor.

Something that has been used successfully for impact damage to soft targets are frangible rounds of compressed metals. They damage soft targets just fine, but if they hit a hard surface, they disintegrate.  Beanbags are nice, but again, you need a shotgun. If you saw the Jackass episode where Johnny Knoxville took a shot (on purpose) from a beanbag round, ouch.  The bruise and swelling he had made me nauseous.
You can't argue with the invincibly ignorant. - William F. Buckley

jedion357's picture
jedion357
July 20, 2017 - 11:29am
Alright, frangible rounds would certainly count as ship safe. Mostly.

Change in cost but not damage except that does not do structural damage.

Could be fun setting up players with frangible rounds in a situation where they might want to shoot off a lock- ooops you can't.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

JCab747's picture
JCab747
July 20, 2017 - 3:20pm
I'd vote for tangler rounds superceding rubber bullets.
Joe Cabadas

Tekrat04's picture
Tekrat04
July 20, 2017 - 5:24pm
Not true. Breaching rounds are flangible. You do not want ricochet or over penetration. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaching_round

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
July 20, 2017 - 7:18pm
Would it really matter when you consider the invaders you're defending against couldn't care less for preserving the ship? They're shooting at you with normal lasers/bullets/explosives, a kind word and a real gun goes a lot further than just the kind word. ;)
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

jedion357's picture
jedion357
July 21, 2017 - 8:14am
There might be something to be said for adapting tangler rounds rather than real world non lethal bullets to the game. No arguments over whether we're being realistic. 

Curious if anyone like my suggested rules for tangler rounds? Take 3 to completely incompacitate. With increasing incompacitation with increasing hits.

It also seems to me that we could use a aerosol can of solvaway as well. Equal to cost of 5 solvaway vials but holds 5 doses.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Inigo Montoya's picture
Inigo Montoya
July 21, 2017 - 3:27pm

What about particular ships that are prone to suffering piracy having built-in defenses within the ship in case of boarding? I am thinking of tangler grenades being hidden in the walls or ceilings of the corridors. They can be concealed in false communication panels, fire extinguishers, emergency lights… These could all be activated by a ship’s crewmember when a hostile boarding action is imminent. The individual devices can be triggered by a motion sensor that does not detect a specific “friendly” signal from a legitimate crew member. A more questionable ship could of course be equipped with more drastic countermeasures if so desired. 

 


SFAndroid's picture
SFAndroid
July 21, 2017 - 3:54pm
Tekrat04 wrote:
Not true. Breaching rounds are flangible. You do not want ricochet or over penetration. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaching_round


Not true? In what way? If they hit a hard surface, they disintegrate. That's the definition of frangible. If you shoot one at a person, they'll take damage just the same. If you shoot a hard enough substance, they disintegrate.  They are usually constructed from a ceramic slug that gives all its energy to the doorknob/deadbolt and blows it off the door jamb. Read the whole article, it says so. 

From said article:

A breaching round or slug-shot is a shotgun shell specially made for door breaching. It is typically fired at a range of 6 inches (15 cm) or less, aimed at the hinges or the area between the doorknob and lock and doorjamb, and is designed to destroy the object it hits and then disperse into a relatively harmless powder.

I work in the firearms industry, I make it my business to know these things =)

Frangible rounds require a harder surface than the round to break apart. People, wood, glass, etc, won't work. Plassteel wall, ship hull, porthole plexiglass...all should work just fine.

Here is what happens:

You can't argue with the invincibly ignorant. - William F. Buckley

SFAndroid's picture
SFAndroid
July 21, 2017 - 4:02pm
Shadow Shack wrote:
Would it really matter when you consider the invaders you're defending against couldn't care less for preserving the ship? They're shooting at you with normal lasers/bullets/explosives, a kind word and a real gun goes a lot further than just the kind word. ;)


True there, 'Shack.

One thing frangibles would be worthless against is Spacesuit Armor. Plassteel plating would make them go poof.

I always fall back on stun weapons for ship defense, but it seems that every pirate these days have A/S implants. Those have always caused me a bit of irritation. I made them really rare back in the day.

Take a TASER, they don't "stun" you, they cause massive muscle contraction and instant fatigue. Sonics cause disorientation through inner ear disruption. How would an A/S stop either of these?  IMO, you need a Sonic Screen. Gauss screens would work against an Electrostunner, but a Stunstick should go right through, as it's a contact weapon. If you don't have a GridSuit or something along that line, contact shock should work.
You can't argue with the invincibly ignorant. - William F. Buckley

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
July 21, 2017 - 6:53pm
jedion357 wrote:
There might be something to be said for adapting tangler rounds rather than real world non lethal bullets to the game. 

Somewhere I have some rules for variant gyrojet pistol/rifle rounds --- in addition to the standard ammo there are tangler, sleep gas, poison gas, and high explosive rounds. When you get right down to the brass tacks, it makes sense to modify the gyro rounds since that genre of weaponry has the various grenade launchers that do the same...the pistol/rifle rounds simply don't have the mass effect as their full on grenade counterparts but when you consider you can snap off three per combat round it makes up for the less effective ammo.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
July 21, 2017 - 6:58pm
SFAndroid wrote:
 Sonics cause disorientation through inner ear disruption. How would an A/S stop either of these?  IMO, you need a Sonic Screen.

According to the rules a sonic stunner can be defeated by either the sonic screen or the A/S implant. I simply house ruled the A/S works against electrical based attacks and sonic screen versus any sonic weapon (including the stunner).

One more good defense agaisnt sonic weapons: a vacuum. Since a ship typically depressurizes for combat, this usually takes effect for boarding actions and nullifies any sonic weapons...more so if the bad guys cut through the hull to gain access instead of bypassing any security measures on the airlocks.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website