The Last Jedi (SPOILERS!)

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 17, 2017 - 11:07pm
A discussion for the latest release in the Star Wars franchise, like the title says:

SPOILERS AHEAD!!!

Proceed at your own risk if you haven't seen it yet, you've been warned.


________________________________________


I like the way it picks up immediately where TFA left off. No multi-year gap between stories like the rest of the episodes have no need for a few seasons of animated cartoon series (Clone Wars cartoon, not the CGI series) to fill in the gaps.

The wingless birds offered just enough comedy relief the crowning moment being making Chewie feel guilty about his dinner versus being a key ingredient to the downfall of the First Order's "legion of best troops".

Kylo Ren's unpredictability --- just when you think he's going one way he does an about face.

I was almost ready to accept Finn's demise (Rogue One prepares you for that quite nicely), but the finale between him and Phasma was gratifying.

The interaction between Luke & Yoda was awesome and his finale was quite a surprise, proving we have yet to see everything one can do with the Force.

Sadly, just like with TFA, the Williams score was so subdued that if you were paying attention to the story then you completely missed it.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

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Comments:

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 18, 2017 - 5:22am
Never crazy about the Finn character. Upset that the people he was raised with fought a battle against armed and fighting back people, he decides his best course of action is to shoot and kill his way off the ship while freeing an enemy soldier who has killed others of those he was raised with. Then spends the rest of the movie helping to kill more of his former comrades. Never could figure out why I was suppose to like this character.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 18, 2017 - 11:32am
His sacrifice with the ski-speeder was broken by one of his new comrades. It was the second time I was convinced he was going to go out in a blaze of glory in this installment.

I can fully digest wanting to see misfortune come to your former employer, I've had a few jobs that made me absolutely miserable with no viable solution beyond leaving. Witnessing or enabling misfortune on one of those abusive former employers? Icing on the cake, says I...
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

jedion357's picture
jedion357
December 18, 2017 - 7:10pm
The disapointments: 

Some of the lets recycle/ revisit some of the greatest moments of the previous movies thing. Its like the feel they have to pander to fans- they liked X,Y&Z so lets put that in this movie so they'll like this movie. Rogue One was the best Star Wars movie since Star Wars and it didnt do this so what the hell? Did we really need to revisit the battle of Hoth?

A Vice Admiral shows up in an evening dress and takes command? Guess her uniform was at the cleaners and stromtroopers raided? Better hope a Jedi is staffing at the cleaners, "These arent the uniforms your looking for?" 
This was illogical. 

Some socail commentating which was quite on the preachy side.

The less disappointing:
Yeah the bird and Chewie were good. I laughed and snickered. Chewie's lost Han but gained a pet.

While the confrontation with Snope (who picked that name?!?) Was a rerun of the end of RotJ it liked what happened when Rey tried to force snatch the light saber off of snopes chair. Unexpect and good for a laugh. And the end of Rey's interview with snope was cool. 

I hated Darth Tantrum in the previous movie. Really hated him. Like that he was a better developed character and consistent. Shadow called him unpredictable but the character was consistently drawn in his unpredictableness. He was not the annoying little monster of the first movie which is good in light of his story arc. 

Benicio Del Toro was awesome playing the scoundrel. Character was well drawn, made sense and was a lot of fun. Deffinetly not pressed from the same mold as Lando or Han. Hope the bring him back.

Phantasma should have had a moment with her helmet off but no just a hole ripped in it through which she peered with one eye. 

There was a fair ammount of stupidity in the movie but not so much as to ruin my enjoyment. My brother thinks this is the best since Star Wars. I disagree. Its merely the best since Phantom Menace. 

I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 18, 2017 - 7:19pm
I have New Hope & ESB tied for top dog followed by Rogue 1, TFA, and ROTJ with the prequels in reverse order going down the hill (i.e. Phantom Meance is the bottom rung with a huge gap between ROTJ and ROTS). I rate TLJ at the bottom of the Disney flicks, but still light years ahead of the prequels.  I'll have to see it again a few times before I can safely say if it edges out ROTJ or not...as such I can safely say the Ewok factor works against ROTJ in that regard and that's some serious bad to go up against which TLJ (so far) doesn't have.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 18, 2017 - 7:44pm
Shadow Shack wrote:
I can fully digest wanting to see misfortune come to your former employer, I've had a few jobs that made me absolutely miserable with no viable solution beyond leaving. Witnessing or enabling misfortune on one of those abusive former employers? Icing on the cake, says I...

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and guess you have never been in the military. Here's a military point of view on Finn's actions. He is no different then one of the Afgan soldiers who shoots his comrades and a few American and British soldiers on his way to jioning the Taliban. Or did you think killing a couple dozen of your former coworkers was icing?
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 18, 2017 - 7:47pm
jedion357 wrote:
Phantasma should have had a moment with her helmet off but no just a hole ripped in it through which she peered with one eye. 
Quote:

Maybe they are just going the Darth Vader route with her and buiding up for the full reveal in the third movie.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
December 18, 2017 - 10:03pm
rattraveller wrote:
jedion357 wrote:
Phantasma should have had a moment with her helmet off but no just a hole ripped in it through which she peered with one eye. 
Quote:

Maybe they are just going the Darth Vader route with her and buiding up for the full reveal in the third movie.


signs point to no
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 19, 2017 - 10:26am
rattraveller wrote:
I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and guess you have never been in the military.

No, I haven't...but I'm pretty sure it would have been an enjoyable career if I had.

Quote:
Here's a military point of view on Finn's actions. He is no different then one of the Afgan soldiers who shoots his comrades and a few American and British soldiers on his way to jioning the Taliban. Or did you think killing a couple dozen of your former coworkers was icing?

I think you're confusing "misfortune" with "murder". All I said was I can relate to disliking a former employer, I never suggested that I'd like to waltz back in with a few submachine guns and go postal. There are many finite layers of misfortune that don't involve killing, up to and including very legal and protected methods.

As for being branded a traitor, it goes both ways: you can leave the local military and join the Taliban or leave the Taliban and join the local military, either way you get branded as a traitor. Good guys and bad guys don't discriminate against that --- mostly because they all think of themselves as the good guys and their enemy is the bad guys --- point of view not withstanding, treachery is treachery. 

For what it's worth Finn has been directly called out as a traitor by the First Order in both films now, first by the tonfa wielding stormtrooper in TFA and by Phasma in the current flick. The fact that Finn is wielding the same type of baton from the first flick against Phasma is not lost on this ideal.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 19, 2017 - 8:26pm
Actually they do brand you differently. Benedict Arnold is known as a traitor. Yet everyone in the Revolutionary War American Army were traitors to the King of England. No one calls them that. Same thing to defectors from countries like North Korea. Their former country calls them traitors but Americans and South Koreans don't.

Finn had other options but in telling this story they went with the kill all the bad guys cause your on the good guys side. Since alot of people are very comfortable with this it doesn't get much play of how terrible his actions are. Try this image the battle scenes but instead of the Stormtroopers standard helmet they are wearing standard helmets and you can see their faces as Finn kills them.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 20, 2017 - 12:43am
rattraveller wrote:
Yet everyone in the Revolutionary War American Army were traitors to the King of England. No one calls them that.

No one from the colonist U.S.-to-be side, that is. The English had no qualms throwing that term around though, for some they still do so today...

Quote:
Same thing to defectors from countries like North Korea. Their former country calls them traitors but Americans and South Koreans don't.

My point exactly.

The Three Musketeers were "evil" and "traitors" according to all of France...they were the only ones "fighting the good fight" by their perspective but the rest of France said otherwise (some were biting their tongues and secretly supporting them, but as far as the public eye goes they called them traitors out loud). By D&D standards those three would call themselves "lawful" while everyone else was "chaotic", meanwhile the whole of France would consider themselves "lawful" and the three outcasts as "chaotic". 

Quote:
Finn had other options but in telling this story they went with the kill all the bad guys cause your on the good guys side. Since alot of people are very comfortable with this it doesn't get much play of how terrible his actions are. Try this image the battle scenes but instead of the Stormtroopers standard helmet they are wearing standard helmets and you can see their faces as Finn kills them.

I'm sure that makes a difference when you can see their faces. It's actually a nit I would pick about the movies: Finn was designated "FN-2187" but exactly how does anyone distinguish that designation when the troops are all suited up? None of them have markings on their armor so if two guys switch suits the rest would never know. It isn't until he (or anyone else) removes his helmet that anyone can actually make the designation.

Back during the clone days it was even worse since they all looked (and sounded) the same, with or without armor...
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 20, 2017 - 7:44am
Shadow Shack wrote:
rattraveller wrote:
 

I'm sure that makes a difference when you can see their faces. It's actually a nit I would pick about the movies: Finn was designated "FN-2187" but exactly how does anyone distinguish that designation when the troops are all suited up? None of them have markings on their armor so if two guys switch suits the rest would never know. It isn't until he (or anyone else) removes his helmet that anyone can actually make the designation.

Back during the clone days it was even worse since they all looked (and sounded) the same, with or without armor...

I always went with the idea that the helmets had video/hologram overlays which allowed the Stormtroopers to designate who was who and give additional information in a battle. Would be really silly to wear them otherwise as they quite easily obstruct their vision.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 26, 2017 - 8:19pm
Did anyone catch the long awaited return of Han's silver Sabacc dice hanging over the Falcon's cockpit? They were briefly seen as Chewie settled into the cockpit in Docking Bay 94 and were never seen again (having been stolen during filming of New Hope) until now.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

jedion357's picture
jedion357
December 27, 2017 - 5:12am
Shadow Shack wrote:
Did anyone catch the long awaited return of Han's silver Sabacc dice hanging over the Falcon's cockpit? They were briefly seen as Chewie settled into the cockpit in Docking Bay 94 and were never seen again (having been stolen during filming of New Hope) until now.


They appeared to be gold in this movie if I'm not mistaken.

And they get quite a bit of screen time this time around compared to the brief moment in docking bay 94.
I would say that their use on screen this time around represents a conscious effort to put the past to rest or bury the past or break with the past. They way in which Luke takes them, then hands them to Leiah and then the way in which they finally disapear should say something to fans: that Star War is a IP that makes money and that its moving on and any foolishness on the part of fans that ammounts to, "Thats not cannon." is not going to constrain future film makers in this IP. Not the way it has with Star Trek. Especially after JJ Abrams blew up the Star Trek universe film makers appear to be able to break with the past in long running properties like these. So i would take the moments that those dice spend on screen as a cue from the film makers that they are putting the past to rest.

Oh, yeah and dont forget to purchase you gold plated Sabacca dice official merchandice from an official Star Wars the Last Jedi Merchandiser. Official Star Wars the Last Jedi merchandizers only use the highest quality materials, true merchandise for true fans.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 27, 2017 - 6:34am
Unfortunately Star Trek has been blown up by more than J J Abrams. The movie series represented a different timeline, something which is cannon to the original series (Mirror Mirror). Fans were generally fine with that but it was the non-stop action and lack of moral lessons that hurt the acceptance. Now with STD which has so little cannon material is just another example of going a way no one really wanted.

On the Star Wars front was reading how Gary Kurtz, who was the producer of Star Wars Episode IV and V quit and did not do Episode VI because of creative differences with George Lucas mainly that George was losing the storytelling and going for more and bigger booms and bangs. So not a new problem.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 27, 2017 - 10:20am
Many parts of ROTJ seem to emote the "let's just get this over with and call it a trilogy" effect. For one thing, you could tell Ford wasn't taking the role seriously, although not quite to the level of Jack Palance in Hawk the Slayer. Still, the Luke/Vader saber duel at the end was hands down the best saber fight in the franchise, you could just feel the emotion as Luke treaded on the dark side.

Despite creative differences, VI was still far better than any/all of the prequels where George was surrounded by yes-men.

jedion357 wrote:
And they get quite a bit of screen time this time around compared to the brief moment in docking bay 94.

Yep, that's what happens when someone with sticky fingers is on the set. Much like with Easyriders where someone stole one of the two Captain America choppers that Fonda built for the film. With that one gone (never to be seen again, much like the dice), they wrecked the other one in the film so none survived.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them resurface in the Solo-solo movie. After all, Ron Howard (American Graffiti) directing a story based on the Ford (also of American Graffiti) character? It has dice hanging in the cockpit written all over it. ;)

Quote:
I would say that their use on screen this time around represents a conscious effort to put the past to rest or bury the past or break with the past.

There's a lot of that in the Disney films. The entire conversation between Luke & Rey has a "this is not your father's Star Wars" underlying tone as well. Ditto for the opening lines of TFA. ;)
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

jedion357's picture
jedion357
December 27, 2017 - 4:08pm
Shadow Shack wrote:
"this is not your father's Star Wars" 


Clearly, you have a wookie known to rip the arms off a droid when he loses at hologram chess. Being guilt tripped by a puffin/owl cross with big puppy dog eyes into not eating the bird he caught, killed, and cooked and now he,s got a ship ful of pet birds? Most Deffinetly not your fathers Star Wars. Chewbacca has become a giant ewok and i hate it

But dont forget to drop the Visa gold card on the stupid cutsy bird merchandise.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

iggy's picture
iggy
December 27, 2017 - 9:41pm
I'm not sure where the story is going with TFA anD TLJ but with TLJ I came out telling my kids that I feel the studio is breaking with the pasg so that they can tell their own story.  I just saw the movie yesterday and have purposly avoided any reading, conversation, video, etc. so that I could come up with my own impressions.  Hence I avoided this thread until now.  I feel like they have purposly spent two movies to break with the past and convert to a new generation.  Chewie is now older and wiser and a bit mellowed by this.  R2 is no longer the go to droid.  He has been "out moded".  The tech is now a bit newer with a few hints that what went on / was used before is now old.  The falcon is now a relic.  The force is no longer a rigid black white, light dark thing.  Sith and Jedi are gone.  Now the force can reinvent itself.  Yup, the future star wars is going to be different.  I hope they don't make it so different that I loose interest like I did the entire Star Trek franchise post enterprise.
-iggy

iggy's picture
iggy
December 27, 2017 - 9:43pm
However.  After the above impression of where star wars is going.  I did like TLJ more than TFA.  However I liked Rogue One far more.
-iggy

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 28, 2017 - 4:20am
Just for my own clarification, what do you mean where SW is going? Isn't there one movie left and then we are done with the trilogy? Are there plans for another trilogy or a TV, streaming, Disney pay for view channel series? I know Disney never gives up on things and recycles and reuses and shows things to infinity and beyond but have not heard of anything past the third movie. By that I mean storywise past the third movie not the prequels we are getting inbetween movie releases.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
December 28, 2017 - 5:12am
I rather think that there will be more Star Wars after the 3 movie in this trillogy.

Not sure it will hold my interest.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

kinock's picture
kinock
December 28, 2017 - 8:35am
They already gave the director of TLJ a 3 movie deal. His movies will be in the Star wars universe but will not deal with the main story line.

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 28, 2017 - 9:28am
rattraveller wrote:
Are there plans for another trilogy


Also, don't forget the expanded/stand-alone flicks that are being done on the side. While the new series kicks the prequels' ass in every manner, so far Rogue One is the best of Disney's offerings and I fully expect Solo's solo flick to perform in a similar fashion.

_____________________________________

Just for fun...

No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

iggy's picture
iggy
December 28, 2017 - 10:09am
In one off movies, I would like to see a Bobba Fett movie.
-iggy

jedion357's picture
jedion357
December 28, 2017 - 2:28pm
Re: one off movies- JABBA!
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 28, 2017 - 7:47pm
I would definitely be down for a Fett flick. Since the special editions suggest that Fett has worked for Jabba prior to ESB it stands to reason Jabba can be a recurring figure in such a film.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

KRingway's picture
KRingway
December 29, 2017 - 1:36am
I didn't mind the film but I wouldn't say it's on par with the previous two. It seemed a little too flippant at times and occasionally reminded me of the earlier sequels (Attack of the Clones, etc). There seemed to be too much effort trying to get into the heads of a few characters, so there was a lot of talking which probably wasn't necessary. This could've been handled better as was the case with Luke and Yoda in Episode V.

Pacing seemed to be a big issue - so, too slow and ponderous when characters are doing exposition, but way too fast when the action kicks off. I had this problem with 'Valerian' too - all that money being spent on CGI and the films tend to rush through it all. The end result is that you lose the sense of scale. I really think that the CGI chaps need to reconsider pacing (and I say this as someone who works in CGI). Also, a fair few of the actors obviously don't do dialogue very well (especially Rey and Hux) so it's probably not a good idea to have them talk as much.

Lastly, the whole scene with the 'bombers' ponderously flying in and being decimated seemed oddly pointless.

Aside from that, I hope the upcoming films are a bit more like the two films that precede this one. In general I think the films need to try the epic yarn/swashbuckling angle used in Episodes IV to VI, otherwise they might start being more like the Clones era stuff.

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 29, 2017 - 4:26am
Shadow Shack wrote:
rattraveller wrote:
Are there plans for another trilogy


It says these movies will take place in the Star Wars Universe but not involve any of the current characters. So this begs the question "What is the Star Wars Universe?"

What elements would need to be included in the stories that would make them Star Wars and not generic sci-fi dressed up to look like Star Wars.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

KRingway's picture
KRingway
December 29, 2017 - 4:46am
Well, IIRC the recent films have drawn on the WEG Star Wars RPG so it's possible that that might have some influence on storylines etc.

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 29, 2017 - 10:30am
I've seen several references to the WEG stuff, starting with those big ten wheel transports we saw in ROTS. Not having played the game I'm sure there are many more that escape me. While some of the goods have been sourced, I doubt we'll see anything story-wise from that since Disney only considers the properties they own as canon.

So far --- at least on film anyways --- the Star Wars "universe" consisits of Tattooine, Hoth, Endor, Naboo, Coruscant, and a few other systems that got brief appearances such as Alderaan, Yavin, Bespin, Anoat, Dagobah, Kamino, Geonosis, Utapau, Kashyyyk, Mustafar, Jakku, Takodona, Hosnian, D'Qar, Ahch-To, Jedha, and several others I would have to look up (such as the cameos when Order 66 was carried out, we saw glimpses of half a dozen on that alone --- I don't know the names of the systems from the latest flick having seen it only once, several more from Rogue One aside from Jedha, and whatever system Starkiller Base was in for starters).

Honorable mention (meaning spoken of but never actually depicted on screen) goes to Kessel, Dantooine, Corellia, Ord Mantell, Sullust, Iego, Christophis, Toydaria, Malastair, Subterrel, Rishi, and a few others that elude me.

Throw in the Rebels and Clone Wars CGI series --- which is considered canon since Disney broadcats/owns both --- and scores of other systems & their tales can be added to the list.


Trust me, there's a lot to draw from just on Disney's canon alone. Cool
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

KRingway's picture
KRingway
December 29, 2017 - 10:43am
I wonder if the WEG stuff is now also owned by Disney in some shape or form, or at least useable in some legal, borrowable form. Ditto for the various novels.